Friday, July 31, 2009

Interview with: A family with a different definition of quiverful


Last week I interviewed Heather about being quiverful and her journey to understanding God's best for her family.

Today I have an opposing viewpoint from Heather's good friend Marcy. I've known Marcy for some years. I knew her when she wanted to be a mom but was waiting for God's best for her to start her family. Now they have have two sweet little ones...and she's doing an amazing job. It's hard work though.

I think most of us have a hard time imagining being quiverful and having eight or nine children. So Marcy's views will be easier for most of us to understand.

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Marcy and family

Is “quiverfull” truly biblical?


Before you click that little “x” in the corner in order to stop reading this, please let me explain what I mean by posing that question. The term quiverfull has become very popular among Christians. And depending on who you ask, you may get a few different answers as to its definition. As Christians, I think we can all agree that one of the main parts of the definition is leaving our family size in the Lord’s hands. Joyously welcoming however many children he gives us. But it is the next part of that definition where we have a little trouble, and that is the part that says in order to be “truly” quiverfull, you do not use any form of birth control, even natural family planning. So lets take a look at the verse of scripture where the term quiverfull is taken from.


“Behold, children are a gift of the Lord, The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; They will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate." (Psalm 127:3-5)


This passage tells us that children are a gift from the Lord, and blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. Is there anything in this verse to indicate that we are not to use family planning? Does anything in this verse indicate how many children are considered a quiverfull? No, and no. Even if we look at Genesis 1:28 where God said “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”, there is no number given as to how many children a couple should have, or that they may not use family planning. In fact, there are no scriptures in the bible that condemn using natural family planning, nor any that tell us how many children we “should” be having. These things have been “added” in order to fit into some people’s definition of quiverfull. And that is the part I have a problem with, which I why I posed the above question as the title of my article.


All we have to do is look around us and we will see many different sizes of quivers among our Christian friends and family. And some are even quiver-less, they have no children at all. Does this mean that a couple that has no children, or only one or two children, are living in disobedience, or being punished by God? Certainly not! God is the One who opens and closes the womb, God is the One who creates life at conception. He is sovereign, He is the Creator and Author of life. If a woman is barren, it is not because she has disobeyed God and is being punished for it. God may have other plans for that woman, for that couple, and to look down at them in judgement is wrong.


We do not know each couples story. Their trials, struggles, heartache. Some may have been trying to conceive for years without success, others may find that parenting more than a certain number of children is more than they can bear financially, emotionally, or physically. These are all things I have been learning since I became a mom two years ago.


My husband Ron and I are leaving it in the Lord’s hands when it comes to our children, however, we do use natural family planning. After learning about the risks involved with hormonal birth control, I stopped taking that several years ago, and will never take it again. We also feel strongly about not having any kind of surgery to make either of us sterile, so that is not an option for us. But we do believe in using wisdom and judgement on our part when it comes to trying to conceive. Obviously the Lord is the one who creates life, so even our best intentions to not conceive is not really in our control. And that is where we would welcome a baby if God deems to give us one even if we were not purposely trying.

Ronnie


But so far in our marriage, we have seen the Lord bless our efforts to use natural family planning. I was off the birth control pill for 1 1/2 years and charting my cycles so I could find my body’s natural rhythm. I was amazed at how much I learned about my body in the process. I was working a full time job and we were paying off debt as our goal was to be debt free so that I could quit my job to stay home and raise our children. The Lord honored our efforts to be good stewards with our money, and to desire for me to be home to raise them. I got pregnant the first month we tried to conceive, my husband was offered a higher paying position at his work just months before our baby was due, and we paid our debt off just two months before my due date. God is good!!! Then, we decided to wait to try to conceive after our son had at least turned one. My cycles returned when he was 10 months old, and I conceived again when he was 14 months old. Our daughter is now 10 weeks old, and our little quiver is growing.

Little Elise just a couple months old

Will we stop at two children? No, we would like more. How many you ask? We don’t know that yet. But I am sure we will get to a point where we may feel that a certain number of children is enough for our quiver. And coming to a decision like that is going to be different for every couple, for every family. But one thing is for certain, even if we do think we are “done” with our quiver, God may not be. And if He chooses to bring us children beyond that, we will joyously welcome them into our family. To me, that is what quiverfull means. But to go beyond that and say a couple cannot plan their family as they feel God has led them is just not biblical. If anyone has scripture verses that they feel says otherwise, please feel free to share them with me. In preparation for this article I have read about quiverfull and what it means by those who first came up with the term, I have read scripture verses like the ones I shared, I have consulted my pastor about this subject, and I prayed before, and while writing this.


My friend Heather wrote the article last Friday about her family and the tough decisions they’ve been forced to deal with. I believe it is wise to take a closer look at how many children to have when you deal with a genetic disorder like they do. God gives us that wisdom, and we need to use it. I pray for Heather and her family almost every day.



Elise sleeping with Daddy

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Now I'd like to open the floor up for comments and questions. Please do not hesitate to disagree with Marcy. I know that she would love to discuss this with you. Feel free to come with scriptures and/or books to "back" you up.

While we both look forward to a discussion on this topic let's remember to be respectful and polite. Leave your mean words in your pocket.



52 comments:

Kathie @ my net finds said...

Thank you for saying this:

"If a woman is barren, it is not because she has disobeyed God and is being punished for it. God may have other plans for that woman, for that couple, and to look down at them in judgment is wrong.

We do not know each couple's story. Their trials, struggles, heartache. Some may have been trying to conceive for years without success, others may find that parenting more than a certain number of children is more than they can bear financially, emotionally, or physically. These are all things I have been learning since I became a mom two years ago."

If only everyone were this open minded!

All I wish is that women who are lucky enough to have children not judge women who can't and to appreciate the fact that they can and quit complaining about everything that comes with motherhood!

Being a mother is a gift and I wish a lot of women would just appreciate it because it's not a given that a woman can have a child. I understand that being a mother is not easy, but honestly it rubs me the wrong way when mothers sound so hateful and ungrateful when they complain about their children.

Thank you to both Heather and Marcy for being 2 mothers who seem to realize that children are a blessing and a gift!

Kim said...

“Behold, children are a gift of the Lord, The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; They will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate." (Psalm 127:3-5)

It is clear here that there is no command! Nothing that commands, and nothing that condemns!

I think that our friend Kimberly made a good point one day when she mentioned that she and her husband feel strongly that you are also responsible for the upbringing of these children. There are many who feel that they are more holy because of the number of their children, yet they lack in teaching these children how to be godly young men and women. The children may be obedient on the outside, but as they leave home you see that their hearts were not turned toward God.

I second what Kathie said about the mothers that complain. In many churches we find that people say "children are a blessing" but you can tell by their attitudes toward their children that they don't really believe that. I went through 9 months of infertility between my 2nd & 3rd and that was one of the hardest things. I remember running into an old friend and she questioned my NOT being pregnant saying, "I thought you all were going to have a lot of kids". This was about 8 months into my not being able to conceive so I just quietly said that it hadn't happened for us yet. I think she felt bad since it was clear that I was struggling with that. But I most certainly learned that it is God that is in control of my womb, not me!

Stacey said...

This is a great perspective, and one that I wholeheartedly agree with. I can't believe that God would give us the knowledge of how our bodies work (our cycles) and then expect us to ignore that. He gave us the desire to be parents, the brains to know what we Him with everything.

Stacey said...

Wow, my last sentence got messed up! It should say: He gave us the desire to be parents, the brains to know what we can handle, and the faith to trust Him with everything.

Yara said...

I very much agree with you on this Marcy.

holly said...

I haven't read the comments, but just wanted to give my 2 cents here. God creates life...who are we to say when and where he can create it? It should be left up to Him. Yes, He gave us "brains" but He also gave us faith, and in the faith, we should believe that He will take care of our needs. I have 8 children...He has proven faithful with each and every child. No, quiverful doesn't mean you will have 39 children, but quiverful should mean that you trust God in His infinite wisdom to give you only what you can handle, and nothing more or less. (I fully believe everything I just wrote, but yes, Michelle can call me on it if she wants. You see, I have a disabled child...my last one...and so, I am not trusting in God to give me more (or not) at the moment. That saddens me daily, but I am fleshly scared. Scared that He thinks I can handle another disabled child, or a normal one after her, even. It is most definitely a walk of faith, and it is hard...but ultimately, I do believe it shouldn't be left to us. We shouldn't be the ones to decide when and where life begins. :)

Milburns' said...

Firstly, I very much agree aboutthe attitude thing. Its how we SEE our children I think that really matters the most. I mean if we are having children blindly (and I agree there are large families that use their numbers to be "holier than thou" which is wrong...but I also do not want people to think ALL large families are like this and hope I did not come across this way in my blog post) but if we are having children blndly then it creates chaos... a kind of chaos that we cannot handle... TRAINED children that are seen as blessings are definitely just that... BLESSINGS. But no matter HOW many one has... if you do not follow thorugh with the other part of that conviction... then you are still disobeying God.

I think THATS my only beef is the people that makes comments like "I was from a large family and wanted MY kids to have a better life" (meaning here more stuff and more money which I STRONGLY disagree with.)

I also disagree with not having more b/c we don't think we can afford them... thats our own logic that gets us into trouble sometimes... b/c just like in Marcy's case... God knew better and blessed them accordingly.

But with so many worldy families out there... they want bigger and better and more stuff and so they don't want to give that up to have more children. Which IMO is very very wrong and UnGodly.

BUT I also agree with Marcy that there is no one number to make a quiver FULL... just like I stated in my blog post. Only God knows whats to come and how many there will be in each family.

I appreciate everyones comments here and want to send kudos to Marcy for a well written and thought out article.

Isn't life beautiful when such good friends can have different views??? You all have to understand how much Marcy and I adore each other!!! Isn't that right girl???

Love you! GREAT article. :-)

Milburns' said...

OH! I reread that and wanted to make SURE you knew I wasnt saying YOU were a worldly family Marcy!!!! I meant to say b/c you felt it was time for you all to have another and God blessed that by adding to your income.

I meant the worldly comment as in OTHER families that are worldly that DON'T have more b/c they cannot "afford" them when they really can if they give up worldly junk or God will provide but they aren't trusting Him too...
anywho...

just trying to make sure that didnt come across wrong...

Marcy said...

I appreciate everyone's comments, and I apologize for not responding sooner. Busy day is all I can use as my excuse. :) Heather, I think you and I actually agree on this subject more than we disagree. :) And yes, I love you to pieces!

Kathie, I would love to give you a big hug right now. I do not even know your situation, but this obviously struck a cord with you and your life. You are so right, mama's do not need to be complaining about their children, and I certainly try not to myself. Especially to others. I may complain to my husband or close friends when I am having a tough day, but I do not like to be one of those negative women who sits and gripes about my kids to everyone I see. I need to have the right attitude about the blessings God has given me, and be thankful for them!

Holly, it sounds like you are actually practicing natural family planning, or avoiding pregnancy right now. Which it sounds like you did not think it was something you would do. And you know what? God is still in that! Because even in our best efforts to not get pregnant, He can make it happen!! So our best plans can be thwarted if God deems otherwise. Know what I mean? Maybe what you call "fleshly fear" is not really fear, maybe it is God's way of saying your quiver is full. Only He knows that for certain of course, but there is a reason we have the feelings we do about things like this, and I feel it is wise to follow our hearts. After all, God's still small voice is there in our hearts to lead us and guide us where He would have us go.

Anonymous said...

“Behold, children are a gift of the Lord, The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; They will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate." (Psalm 127:3-5)

As I read this,it is just sooo clear to me. Okay, here is how I see it... Children are a 'gift' from GOD so why would I try to avoid Him from blessing me with one. Is it possible to have too many blessings, gifts or rewards? I wouldn't try to stop someone from giving me a special gift, the same thing happens with God's special gifts to us.

Another thing is, if I were to speak with my enemies at the gate. Would I know beforehand 'how many' arrows I would need to face these enemies? NO. Then, wouldn't it be wise to have my quiver as full as it can be... even if I think it might be hard to carry the quiver all the way up to THAT gate?

Marcy said: "We do not know each couples story. Their trials, struggles, heartache."

I say: We don't have to know, because 'God knows.' Even with our trials, struggles and hearaches we are called to 'trust' Him... He is our Father and He is with us! Just like we want our children to trust us, we are His children and He wants us to trust Him.

Life has it's ups and downs, we can all agree on that. It's just easy to trust God when we can more or less see that things are going to turn out okay for us... but it's VERY difficult to have and "keep that Faith" when things seem like they will be heading uphill for us.

But we still have to trust.

Stacey said: "He gave us the desire to be parents, the brains to know what we can handle, and the faith to trust Him with everything."

I agree with this except for the part when she said 'He gave us...the brains to know what we can handle." You see we probably "know" what we can handle right now but we basically have NO IDEA of how MUCH MORE we can handle if we allow God to rule in our lives and give us whatever load he sees fit for us. Along with along with that load, He will give us the Grace to be able to carry it!

Just like Holly said: "He gave us "brains" but He also gave us faith, and in the faith, we should believe that He will take care of our needs."

But we won't know that until afterwards... that's the scary part, right? :-D

Wonderful discussion. Blessings to all.

Lamonica Epps said...

Interesting blog post. I've always wondered about the couple that has 18 kids (they currently have a reality show on TLC.) Do they believe in the same thing?


Stopping by from SITS

Anonymous said...

Marcy,it is hard for me to believe that Holly's "fleshly fear" may be God's way of telling her that her quiver is full.

If her quiver were full then He would just not send her anymore children and her feelings would probably not be of 'fear'. If it were full I would think He would put in her heart a feeling of 'fullness'. You know what I mean?

And then there would be no need for the Natural Family Planning because it's ALREADY FULL.

In other words, if God wants to tell Holly that our quiver is full then NFP at this point is just useless because He won't be sending anymore babies anyway.

holly said...

I agree with you, anon. God does not talk to us through fear. He is not the author of fear. That is from satan. My quiver will only be full when God decides, not me. I am going against whatever plan He has for me by not trusting in Him. I know this, and I grieve about it all the time. I cry when I think of what I am doing, yet, like a drug addict, I can't seem to let go of the fear. Having a child that will never walk or talk, or live on her own tends to do that to me...LOL! No, it's not funny, but it is so hard! God truly is the author of life, and He is faithful. It is so hard for me to tell you all this, yet practice differently. Except, I am coming out of this fear, slowly. Who knows the plan God has for me, but Him? I may stop fearing more children, and have relations with wild abandon (HAHA!!) and never get pregnant again. That is the thing with believing like this (the way we always believed until Rachel). God may give, and He may not...or He may give and then take away. Had that happen too. The whole point is trust and leaning not on your own understanding.

holly said...

Oh, and another thing. While one could say I have a valid reason for my fear, I don't think so. Fear is fear, for whatever reason. I "could" fear a rough pregnancy (which I have) or I could fear not ever having my own time, or my own job, or whatever. One reason isn't more valid than another. Sin is sin, and thus, fear is fear. No matter what reason we give for not wanting any of God's blessings, they are all wrong if you believe in being quiverful I am talking to myself just as much as I am trying to talk to you all. I am not ever going to think I am more holier than thou, because I allowed God to give me 8 children and you are sitting there with 1 or 2. I didn't "allow" God to do anything more with me than He wanted. He could have chosen to give me none...He does that. For His reasons. Its just that you need to be willing to let Him decide...not you. He knows what you are capable of, and He won't give you more than you can handle. Even if you "fear" that, He will still remain faithful. This isn't the first time I have feared pregnancy, although it's been the biggest, longest time. I really didn't do anything to prevent it, but feared none the less. I hemmoraged (how do you spell that word anyway?) with one so badly they talked about blood transfusions, and then got pregnant again pretty much immediately. It was fine, but I wondered. I miscarried, and then got pregnant again pretty much immediately, and feared I would lose him too. It was fine. I have painful, very painful pregnancies, and my progesterone levels are very low, and~~and~~and...I could go on, and on, but I won't. I only say this to show whoever that God still takes care of it all. Even through my miscarriage, God used that to bring me closer to Him, and it took the miscarriage to help clean out my body. That is a whole 'nother story. This is so disjointed, and I truly hope I am conveying what I am trying to...It's still early for me, and I have no caffeine yet. LOL.

Twisted Cinderella said...

I am enjoying this very interesting discussion.

Marcy said...

There is one thing we are all saying that is the same, God is in control! God is sovereign! Like I said before, He can thwart our best laid plans. So really, even when we think we are "planning" our families, we aren't. God is. I do not believe that because my husband and I choose to "try" and prevent pregnancy at a certain time, that we are living in sin by doing so. The scriptures do not speak to that issue. Because like we are all saying, God is the one who makes a baby, and He will do that whenever he pleases. That is why I said that even if I get pregnant when we were not planning for one, we will still welcome that baby joyously into our family. That is God's will for it to happen. So nothing that we do, or don't do, can stop whatever plans God has for us. I hope that makes sense as I don't want to go around and around in circles with you all.

One of the main things I have wanted to get across is that it is not right to look down our noses at another couple for having no kids, or only one or two, etc. That is one of the problems I see with the quiverfull movement, a sort of pride and arrogance that can come with it. Like I stated in my article, we do not know each couple's story, so we need to sensitive about this with others. And for those of us who do have children, we need to be thankful for those blessings God has chosen to give us. And raise them in the fear of the Lord, for after all, these children are His.

Anonymous said...

About trusting:

At the begining of my last pregnancy I was a little hessitant about sharing the news. When I finally did, I got a few judgemental comments about it :-/ Just what I had been afraid of.

These comments came from very christian people and their ideas started to bounce around in my head to the point were I began to doubt if being quiverful is what God wanted us to be. Could it be irresponsable parenting, I thought? I must be missing something? Why else would other christians look down on me for being quiverful; for blindly leaving it up to Him?

I said to myself: "I guess I haven't read that passage yet." I felt that maybe they knew something that I didn't know.

After a few days of having my mind all mixed up, I realized that I was lacking in faith and 'that' was why I had become so worried about it.

Then I decided to read the bible more in order to strengthen my faith. Plus, sooner or later I would stumble upon a passage that will clarify my doubts.

And guess what happend next...

I took the bible and started to read on whatever page it opened up to. And this is what I found:

"Blessed is every one who fears the LORD, who walks in his ways!
You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall be well with you.
Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your children will be like olive shoots around your table.
Lo, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the LORD..."

As I read this I felt relieved and said: "yeah, all I have to do is believe in God, everything will be okay. Plus I'm a fruitful vine and my children are olive shoots so having another child at my table is a good thing." Since I was pregnant, this really ment alot to me ;-)

Then I began to real the Psalm that came before the one I had just read. Here it is:

"Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain who build. Unless the LORD guard the city, in vain does the guard keep watch.
It is vain for you to rise early and put off your rest at night, To eat bread earned by hard toil-- all this God gives to his beloved in sleep." [I then reflected on this and thought: Our efforts are useless if HE is not the one in control. Unless He builds/plans my home/family it would be in vain for me to do it. Unless He takes care of things, it would be in vain for me to take care of it. I am called to trust and let Him take control!]

I continued to read and WOW was I surprised!!!

"...Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one's youth. " [It was "THE" quiverful Psalm... right in front of me and I didn't even realize it until I got to the part about the arrows. Wow, PSALM 127 right under my nose!)

"...Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate. "

After this, all I felt was JOY!!! And an extra-mega-bega boost of faith. :-D

Anonymous said...

seriously, i understand not wanting to use hormonal birth control for health reasons, but, come on, if God wants you to have more children there is really nothing you can do about it anyway. and, God did give us "brains". for coming up with things like anti-seizure meds for heather's children. i don't think it's any more un-Biblical to give your child meds to make their life easier (isn't that not leaving the seizures in God's hands?) than it is to take measures to responsibly have only as many children as you think you can handle.

mu husband and i have 5. we think we're done. he has had a vasectomy. if God thinks that is a bad idea, i am quite sure those little tubes will crawl back together and i will have another baby. and that would be as much of a blessing as the other 5 are.

i don;t think we can do anything God doesn't want us to do, so if He puts it in our hearts that maybe we have enough, and want to keep our marriage strong with "abandon" by taking measures to prevent pregnancy, that ought to be just fine.

holly said...

If God thought you should be done having children, anon, then you could have sex all day every day and not get pregnant. Happens to people all the time...the not getting pregnant part...I doubt they have sex all day every day. HA!

Also, I get what you are saying about "brains" to take your children to the doctor and "brains" to use medicine when ill, but sickness is NOT the same as life. With that argument, you could say the God gave you "brains" to decide you can't take care of a baby, so have an abortion. Life is way different than illness....seriously.

holly said...

Oh, and another thought, because I always have those after I hit publish...God, in His infinite wisdom, made our bodies to work the way He wanted it to. Taking it upon ourselves to "break" things, is definitely NOT in His plan. You can say that if He wants you to have a baby, He can sqiggle those tubes back together again is sadly mistaken. It's like your challenging Him. If He wanted to bring you back to life, after you kill yourself...well, think about what you are saying. He has a plan, but He allows us to work our own lives. It doesn't change what He wanted for us. Plus, when you think about all the problems "breaking" oneself has to offer, why would you want to do that?

jill said...

Can I not publish a comment if I dont have a google account? (this is a test before I type out a long comment)

Milburns' said...

All really good points guys.

I wanted to add a few more things to my POV.

Being quiverful is NOT about a number or having a lot of kids.

The Word says "happy is the man who's quiver is full of them" BUT most quiverful folks don't think you are any less quiverful without a lot of kids.

Because what its about is complete surrender of ones fertility/ womb to the Lord to do as He wills without our puny human logic interfering.

As for birth control pills. They are an aborti-facient and do not allow implantation of an already fertilized egg (IMO a fertilized egg is life implanted or not). They also cause nasty side effects in the woman who take them and birth defects in the baby's who were conceived unknowingly while on the pill. It's the same for all hormonal birth controls.

As for sterilization in both men and women... both have more risks than most people realize. There are so many men who have life long issues from their vasectomies that there are now several associated "conditions" from having one. And yes, men have died more than docs would like to admit from having had a vasectomy.

Women have far more risks involved with sterilization. Including but not limited to an increased risk of ectopic pregnancies.

Hubby and I do not personally believe in spermicides as we are not even comfortable with killing the sperm. We also do not believe in barrier methods as it does in fact inhibit, to some degree, intimacy and that to me intrudes on Gods whole ideal for sex. So then it makes it more about the sex than the God given connection of intimacy.

Natural Family Planning is what we "implement" and we are currently in prayer on the subject... having always been quiverful to the point of completely leaving it up to God... not trying and not trying NOT to get pregnant ever.

Anywho... thats more on my personal POV.

Milburns' said...

Holly what you said here:

"It is so hard for me to tell you all this, yet practice differently. Except, I am coming out of this fear, slowly. Who knows the plan God has for me, but Him? I may stop fearing more children, and have relations with wild abandon (HAHA!!) and never get pregnant again. That is the thing with believing like this (the way we always believed until Rachel). God may give, and He may not...or He may give and then take away. Had that happen too. The whole point is trust and leaning not on your own understanding."

WOW is that where I am. I really appreciated the sentiment. I wanted to say thank you for that input. This convo is really in Gods timing as we pray about our fertility with this genetic junk going on.

jill said...

now I have typed out about 6 different things and erased each. LOL! I dont want to get involved in an argument.
I just feel so much pain for the woman with the large family and the disabled child and the GUILT she is feeling from these doctrines being thrown in her face! That is so sad. So very sad.
All I will say at this point is that eventually, all of you QF ladies WILL change. I have seen it over and again in the 25 or so years that I have been deeply involved in the Christian QF movement. EVERY single family that I have ever known to be QF, they are for a time, but then after 7-10 children or so,
that fades and THEY decide to take their fertility into their own hands and the babies stop.
Does this mean that they are weak? That what they believed in for so many years was wrong? That their faith thru the years means nothing?
OF COURSE NOT!!!!
What I see is that God is the ONLY One who could put that *drive* into their hearts to be QF in the past bcz that is EXACTLY what being QF is, its an over powering DRIVE. It is the same drive that a family may feel when they know they must adopt a child. It is hardly human, that need , that desire. And the reason that it is so strong and "hardly human" is bcz it IS of God. God puts that desire in a womans heart BECAUSE He has a certain child or children planned and He is going to use this woman to acheive His goals to bring forth this life that must play a part in history.
What is amazing for me to see is that just as strong as that desire to have babies is, that also the desire to be done is when God is done.
My point is that I know, bcz I am older than you ladies and have a larger family than any of you and have been involved in the QF movement for a longer time,
I KNOW and have seen, that God uses us for His purposes at different times in our lives we will be convinced of one thing, bcz God desires us to be convinced :) And at other times in our lives EVERYONES convictions totally change for a reason.
I , personally,
have 11 children. I have gone thru QF phases in my life. Strong strong leadings at the time. I have been totally on fire and driven toward that conviction for a reason at those exact moments. And the reasons are the people that were born of those convictions. I have also been totally on fire and driven to adopt at certain times in my life. And the reason for the fire at the time was bcz of the children that we were suppose to adopt at that exact time in history. Other times in my 30 yr marriage my dh and I used NFP bcz we were not driven at that moment to bring forth another child. But I now can look at my beautiful family, 11 children and 2 so far grandbabies, and know that each and everyone was totally and completely planned by the God of all. I may *think* that dh and I had some control,
but really we didnt.We have no one more or no less children than God planned as the foundations of the earth were laid. No one is missing from our quiver bcz of times of using NFP! That would be ridiculous and arrogant for myself to think that I have even the smallest iota of control. It is totally and completely God who creates human eteranal souls at His perfect timing. And *sometimes* that comes as a surprise to us humans (ie the unplanned babies) but other times God plants the desire first and He *may* lead some of us to feel "quiverful" at certain times in our lives to acheive His plans,
but it is also in His will to take that drive away when His goals have been accomplished.
You will all see in hindsight someday ,too :) But for now, just DROP THE GUILT women!!! And allow yourselves the freedom to go w/ what feels right to YOU at this time in your life. Whether that feeling be toward being qf and having more babies, or toward using NFP, it is GOD who orchestrates it all

Anonymous said...

holly, wanted to respond to you to maybe clarify my pov? first, my name is stacy, i didn't mean to drop a line and run off in a cowardly fashion, i just don't generally blog/have an acct. and i want you to know that my intention in voicing an opinion is honestly along the lines of jill's "drop the guilt".

first, i don't pretend to know what is right for any other woman. only me. i don't know why, though, that not practising any form of birth control is ever presented as the only way to be a faithful Christian woman. this is a 2 way street. if a woman's husband has just lost his job, their house is being repossesed, and they already have several children they are going to have a hard time feeding, isn't it also "challenging" God to go on about your unprotected sex life when God has given you the ability to discern that it may not be a good time for another baby and also the ability to try to prevent it?

second, i am not intending to trivialize illness by relating it birth control. my point is that, if indeed leaving your womb in God's hands is thought to be the only way to demonstrate good faith in God's will for your procreation, then how can you stop there? if you have strep throat, why do you pray for healing AND go to a doctor and get an antibiotic instead of staying home and trusting that God will heal you in His own time. why would you think you get credit for leaving your womb to Him, when you don't leave everything else to Him also? i think it's because in God's good providence He has given us good options and good sense to utilize those options. i believe God watches over me and my children, and i am not going to die until He wants me, but i don't walk through cracktown, alone, at midnight, either. by the staunchly qf reasoning, i should trust God's will for me in that, too. but God gave me the sense to NOT challenge Him. i was not challenging Him when i said if He wanted me to become pregnant, my husband's vasectomy wouldn't stop it. it's just the truth. i am not sadly mistaken in saying that God's will will override my best efforts. i was taking birth control pills when i conceived my 3rd child. i am blissful that He gave her to me. His plan was obviously better than mine. as for breaking my husband's properly functioning body--i go back to the illness analogy again. if my child was born with a lazy eye and surgery could fix it, i don't think any mother here would have a problem with that...but...couldn't it also be said that it was God's will for that child to have a lazy eye and who am i to go off "fixing" what He made? again, i think God presents us with both problems/questions and the solutions/answers, if we look for them, and listen for Him, and pray for guidance.

i just don't think that if a woman/couple has what they feel is a valid reason to not have more children that anyone can say that that feeling doesn't also come from God.

thanks for listening, and, again, please believe i am not trying to be confrontational. just trying to present another side of the issue.

holly said...

But, you can't compare a life to an illness or a disability. Fix the lazy eye, because it is messed up. Don't "fix" reproduction that isn't. Do you understand my point? Yes, you can use the argument that God created that individual with the lazy eye, so leave it be, but also, things outside of God's plan are happening too. If you use crack, you're making a baby with a lazy eye...So in essence, while God allowed it, it wasn't in His original plan. Fallen man creates disabilities too. However, some people do leave their "issues" alone and don't fix them for that reason. Still, different than life.

If you lose your home, and all that stuff, first off, it probably wasn't God's fault, but more the fault of either ones self or man in general, but do you not have the faith that if God creates a baby, that He will then take care of it? He will provide you with means SOMEHOW.. I know this! He says, He will never leave us nor forsake us, and He is faithful. Trials are just that...They are not forever. People tend to look at the here and now, short term stuff, rather than the eternal stuff. I was broke as a joke when I had my first baby. Wasn't ready (by my terms) to have one, but God was faithful. He helped me through it. Each time, I wasn't financially ready and I could have used that as an excuse, because that is all it is really, excuses...but I didn't. God gave my husband opportunities for raises, lower housing costs, unexpected money. You name it, it happened. He knows your struggles with money and such. He is all knowing, and cares more than you think about issues like this. Pray for Him to help you out of such problems. But ultimately, lean on Him and let Him take care of it.

I am not overwhelmed with guilt, for the lady who said that she felt sorry for me. I struggle with it, but I am pragmatic enough to know that it is my problem. God isn't judging me for my lack of faith. He is patiently waiting for me to become obediant again. Quiverful as a lifestyle requires obediance, plain and simple.

Who am I to decide when and where life should be created? Really? Being a christian, knowing that I will be taken care of by God, I should be completely relying on faith. Soon, I think I will be again.

Iris said...

(a.k.a.- the anon who posted messages 10,12 and 17... I'm a first timer and didn't foresee the confusion that all these anonymous messages would cause.)

There are a few things that I would like to address.

First I want to say that being 'blessed' with a baby is NOT EQUAL, NOR COMPARABLE to any illness. We have brains in order to treat an illness but "dare I tamper with God's design for my body if it’s NOT ill? No." Creation comes from God and illness comes from man. Medicine was invented by man in order to treat or fix what man himself has messed up.

You can use your 'brains' to treat an illness but you don't need surgery in order to keep your marriage healthy... All you need is GOD in order to keep it strong.

This leads me to my next question. ”Dare I tamper with God’s design for my marriage? Another NO.” When you have sex without inviting God into that union then you are keeping Him out of an extremely important part of your marriage. Allowing Him to join ‘us’ and have part of our union is the most intimate and holy thing that we can share as a couple. I'd say this is a wonderful treatment for our marriage. It is the part when we literally become ONE, so the Lord should be there with us!

He should be in our marriage at ALL times in order to keep it strong.

Like I mentioned above: Creation comes from God. We are created in His image and likeness. He is the Creator of all things... when we join our bodies and souls in intimacy and allow Him to become a part of it... we then get as close as we can get to the Creator's "likeness" because we are open to be His co-creators, if He so wishes.

Also: Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are supposed to take care of our body, not mutilate it. A vasectomy is a mutilation of the body. It changes God’s design. It tampers with "THE" very reason why men even have testicles, that is their function. The message that we give out to God is: I don't want this organ to work anymore so I am going to mess it up. Only God has the 'true' right to do that because it is 'HIS' design. I repeat: If the body is not ill then it does not need treatment/surgery.

The next thing that I want to say is: Jill, I don't think that God's plan for marriage is ambiguous like that.

And finally: "Guilt is a good thing... It helps keep us from drifting further and further away from the Lord. "

Blessings to all!

Michelle said...

WOW! What a wonderful discussion. I agree with everyone. LOL.

I think Jill's post really resonated. Of course, I am biased and think everything Jill says is so great. She is my friend.

But really. I think what Jill was trying to say is that it's a conviction. If the bible isnt clear on something but God convicts us in that area than it is a sin for us, but not for someone else.

Heather and I have talked about dressing modestly for our families. Heather has told me how over the years her convictions on modesty has changed...she went from extreme conservativism (is that a word?) to not so much. They still dress modestly. But now it's not so hard core.

I can say the same for books and movies. When I was a single woman I had STRONG convictions about what I could watch and read. I had to protect my mind and heart. That was where God lead me. Now that I'm married and those things don't affect me in those ways, God has shown me that I have MUCH more freedom.

I think deciding to let God control your womb, with no help from you, is a conviction. And like Jill said, I think our convictions can/will change.

It is not a sin for Holly or Heather to no longer be convicted to be quiverful. I KNOW Heather and her husband SOUGHT GOD on what to do. They did not wake up one day and say...too bad, we dont care what God wants.

Now really when we get to the root of this God is the one in charge. But he also lets us make decisions. It's not like we get in our cars and say, you drive God. No, we look at a map and decide. I'm breaking it down, but this is like that.

Yes, it is ultimately up to God. But he hears our desires and loves us.

I've loved this discussion but I still don't know exactly where on this I fit. I'm torn in the middle. And every time I read something I lean that way. LOL.

Adam said...

Michelle?? where did you read that I wasn't convicted to be quiverful? I am very convicted...I am just having a hard time getting past a child with a severe disability.

Michelle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michelle said...

Sorry Holly...

stacy said...

testing

Michelle said...

It works Stacy. LOL

stacy said...

michelle--i saw that, thank you, lol. and i'm sorry to leave that, but i was typing. and i am apparently so prolific a typist, that i will have to post in several sections. because i am olnly allowed 4,096 characters, and my passion exceeds that.

btw--beautiful family, beautiful blog. :)

Nickname unavailable said...

ok, i'm me now. so iris doesn't have to worry about getting confused with me. :) in my defense, i did try to identify myself by name with the second post. i'd like to state, for the record, that nothing i have said nor do my own personal convictions ever advocate ending life once begun. what i do advocate is responsible planning FOR new life. i do not push any particular form of birth control. neither do i judge any particular form of birth control. i do not consider abortion to be birth control. i do not agree with abortion.

as far as planning for life... not all mothers are good Christian women with good families and good values and a healthy body with a lack of inherited risk factors. i suspect i may be the only person in this thread who works in a neonatal intensive care unit. i have taken care of the "crack" babies. i have seen them shake, thier hearts racing, and try to cry, going through withdrawal. often they can't cry because they are so sick, they are on ventilators with a tube in their throat. i have taken care of the babies with profound (note that i said "profound", not mild nor moderate) genetic disorders. i have watched them die in their mother's arms when all our best efforts were exhausted. thousands of babies in africa are orphaned every year (and often born sick themselves) because their parents have died from hiv. some of them are being raised on a cup of rice a day by siblings who haven't hit puberty yet because most of their family has been wiped out. and before you shout out that that is a result of their sinful behavior, you think about how you are going to change it. you think about the daily suffering that is the lives of children like that. do i think God allowed us to figure out how to prevent pregnancy. yes, i absolutely do.

since my comments got a lot of ALL CAPS (yelling?) responses, i would appreciate an opportunity to respond to a few of the points lobbed at me. please believe i do not wish to stir conflict, i do not wish to offend, and i do not have a notion that i will change those minds, my comments are for the consideration of those women who feel any bit "less than" women who tell them the ONLY faithful response to reproduction is to keep having babies. and i am not saying any of you should practise any particular form of birth control. for the women who have lots of children that they can feed, take good care of, and rear to be disciplined, God fearing members of society--you have my full support and admiration. we have 5--i cannot imagine how hard you work, jill--God is with you, and has blessed you amply.

ok--"you can't compare a life to an illness or a disability." yes, i can, because, #1--i am not condoning terminating life in progress, and #2--because of the following statement in the same post, "being a Christian, knowing that i will be taken care of by God, i should be completely relying on faith." if you think it is a breach of faith to regulate procreation, why does your faith end at your uterus. how do you then justify calling a doctor, or going to the hospital? do you not have enough faith in God when you or your children are ill to ONLY pray about it? wouldn't anything else be an artificial intervention, possibly against God's will?

stacy said...

here's a uterine-specific senario--i'm 36 weeks and begin to bleed. i call a doctor and he tells me to go to the hospital. they discover that my placenta is abrupting, and, if i don't have a c section, it is likely that i, or my baby, or both will bleed out and die. if i believe only that my "womb is in God's hands", then do i allow a secular intervention? maybe it's God's will that this child shouldn't be born, since i think i have "given" Him control of my womb? i think most of us would say, "cut! now!" is that a lack of faith, or is it taking advantage of and being blessed by this marvelous medical option God has presented to us?

next--"creation comes from God and illness comes from man. medicine was invented by man in order to treat or fix what man himself has messed up."

this is categorically and unequivocally...not true. i do agree that God orchestrated creation, but God ALSO orchestrates illness. i doubt you would say that to the face of a Christian friend whose child has autism, or cystic fibrosis, or Down's syndrome, or alpha 1 anti-trypsin syndrome, or cerebral palsy, or trisomy 13, or a cleft pallette, or webbed fingers or toes, or was born with nothing but a brain stem (no brain-i have taken care of this child, also). would you tell those women that they did something wrong and were being punished? not to mention the infertile--maybe God's plan isn't ALWAYS have babies.

further, the medicine that was "invented by man" is distilled from substances that God created. digitalis is, literally, a God-send for innumerable cardiac patients--it comes from the common foxglove. lowly aspirin comes from the bark of willow trees. (ru-486 is an abomination, but, fortunately, it is one of a small number of drugs that an arrogant human race doesn't need, but has also conceived of.) to go even further, chemotherapy is poison. but, if i were diagnosed with cancer that may have a chance of being cured by it (and keep me around to be a mother to the children i have), i would not ONLY pray about it, i would consider the suffering involved to be the trial God might have in mind for me and the opportunity He has given me, and i would poison my body, along WITH prayer and thanksgiving and hope.

stacy said...

finally, i will close with--mutillation. i am not a very good record-keeper, my husband knows this, and he also knows that the risks of a tubal ligation are greater than the risks of a vasectomy. he lovingly agreed to undergo this procedure. i do not pretend to tell anyone that this procedure is for them. but i do resent anyone telling me i caused his "mutillation". here is the quote, "a vasectomy is a mutillation of the body. it changes God's design. it tampers with 'THE' very reason why men even have testicles, that is their function." also a purely emotional statement not based in fact. testicles also produce testosterone, which is not inhibited in any way as the result of a properly-performed vasectomy. we like the fact that he still has testosterone because we both appreciate his deep voice, his scruffy face, and his ability to achieve and maintain an erection. (and, yes, i say that with a bit of tongue-in-cheek, but i don't think any children are reading this). along those lines, (mutillation of the body), do any of you have pierced ears or have any of you had your sons circumsised? that's mutillation by the standards quoted. for that matter, do any of you have a child or know of a child within your Christian circle of friends who has had their tonsils and adenoids removed or tubes placed in their ears due to chronic infections and prolonged discomfort? God designed our bodies to react with inflammation in response to pathogens. therefore, the discomfort of repeated strep infections and chronic ear infections is the result of a "properly" functioning body. if you have perfectly functioning tonsils and adenoids removed, or ear drums ruptured with tubes to allow drainage, , in order to govern the body's reactions, aren't you also then "mutillating" the body? one of my close friends had to have a hysterectomy due to prolonged, painful uterine issues, with bleeding so often that she was chronically anemic. is she less faithful because she allowed her doctor to take her uterus and consigned herself to be grateful for the 1 child she has? i don't think so. but that is only my opinion.

and, this is probably not necessary to relate, but as a sinful human (or a Christian woman relating to other Christian women, i'm not totally sure), i feel compelled, since this also was brought up--

my intimate relations with my husband are most DEFINITELY blessed by God and sacred to us both. not only blessed and sacred, but mandated--that we become one flesh. our choice was made after thoughtful consideration and prayer. we sought to prevent conception, NOT end an already blossoming life. we believe God gave us the "drive" (as jill so beautifully explained, either to continue having babies, or not) to know that we were probably done. and, now, we enjoy each other without fear or worry or concern or inhibitions or restriction or hesitancy. i adore my husband. we don't just "have sex", we join in a Devine union, just like those of you who may think you are more righteous than me because you do not practise any form of family planning.

if you look back, you will see that i said i was taking the pill when i conceived my 3rd child. i can't override God's plan, obviously. and that child is the kindest, most loving, most Christ-like member of our family. she is beauty beyond measure. i think we are done. we took measures to make our love-making more comfortable, as far as we thought appropriate, based on our God-given intuition/intellect/ability.

i can't thwart God's will. if i became pregnant, after my secular measures to not become pregnant, i would welcome that as God's will.

but, who are you (and you know who you are) to tell me that NOT getting pregnant is NOT God's will for us?

stacy said...

ok--thought i fixed the name--nickname unavailable is also me. :)

Michelle said...

Stacy, thanks so much for sharing all that.

Again, to me, it makes perfect sense. LOL. I'm no closer to knowing where I fall on this spectrum.

Yara said...

Stacy,
Thank you so much for that. I completely understand where you are coming from!
Maybe because, I have 3 beautiful, wonderful children. And at the end of my 3rd pregnancy, my uterine ruptured.
I refused to go BACK under the knife for a tubal ligation. At almost 8 months postpartum there are still times when I have pain, not from the emergency c/s I had to have, but from the 'repairs' made to my 'broken' body.
I instead chose *gasp* birth control. A mirena IUD. As close to permanent as we can get without surgery, from what I read (and I am not in the field of medicine, and have not had coffee yet today, so do forgive me if I am wrong)
Do I feel I am being unfaithful to God? No.
What I do feel is that:
God told me (yes, actually audibly TOLD me, on Dec 31 2007, in my mother's bedroom in Southern California) that He would give me a baby. He had to tell me twice, because I didn't immediately believe it & was like, Um, what??
And then I told my cousin, who was praying with me, about the debilitating painful cysts that kept growing bigger; what God had said to me. And I was happy, I felt SO privileged, that God would chose to give me (another) baby. And I waited, and waited, and when I least expected it, God placed my sweet baby boy in my womb. And OH! He was so gracious as to bless us with a son, my hearts desire, after having blessed me with a daughter, and then a sister for her.
But I also feel he made sure to not let me be boastful. I had 'planned' a homebirth (after 2 c/s) and, especially among Christian quiverful woman, I had been made to feel that CHOOSING a c/s was somehow wrong. So I should let my baby come the 'right' way. And I have to thank God that He showed me, in time, to stop being an idiot & get to a hospital to save my son and myself. God even used my son, having him turn breech (whatdaya MEAN that's a foot? no way!) so that I HAD no choice but to have a c/s (or, you know, die...) Hmm, even the non Christian staff in the o r said 'someone is looking out for you' Oh yes He was!
And to think, the way a lot of Christian women think, I must have done something wrong by allowing a very human intervention and not 'trusting God'
I KNOW I am being obedient to God. I am NOT by any means lacking in faith or being UNholy or UN godly.
I think, it would be reckless and a way of me challenging God, to try to get pregnant, when, for reasons unknown to me, it has been made extremely clear that I should NOT, at this time or any time in the near future, attempt to be pregnant. The idea of leaving my children and husband, for some 'desire' to have another child, seems arrogant and selfish to me. (for my family- if God had led someone to have more babies, good for you)
But don't look down at those of us who God has led a different way.
For as faithful and obedient as you claim to be, is not judging someone else, also a sin?

Yara said...

And Michelle, I hope what I said doesn't seem to you that I am not 'keeping it nice' as you requested.
But if it does, do feel free to remove my post. I promise not to be offended if you choose to remove it. You know how much I love you <3

holly said...

Stacy, perhaps you are not aware, but my 2 year old baby is severely disabled. She will probably never walk or say mommy. Or even live past childhood. Do I think God created her like this? Absolutely not! He knew her before she was born, but her disability is due to fallen man. The breakdown of genetic material started with Adam and Eve. So, while I would want no one to tell me it was MY fault she was born like this, I certainly do not blame God for punishing her in some way. He doesn't pick and choose who to make one way or the other. And, if you want to really get technical, I might possibly HAVE made her this way. Diabetes messes with brain development, and while I believe the docs who say it is genetic, being that they have not found the specific genetic defect, there is still that possiblity. However, her soul is still perfect, and she will remain so in heaven, but her body will not ever be. Does that make her less worthy than you or I? No...If you say that God creates children with spina bifida and trisomy 13, then you are saying God is a punishing God who could care less about us. It's along the same lines of saying God gave you cancer. Allowing things to happen is not the same as causing them.

Iris said...

Michelle you said: "...But he[God] also lets us make decisions. It's not like we get in our cars and say, you drive God. No, we look at a map and decide. I'm breaking it down, but this is like that."

Yes, that's what we do with cars. We are supposed to make decisions in our daily lives but we must always keep in mind “why” He gives us a Free Will. Our ‘free will' is necessary in order to show our loyalty. It is up to us to choose good or bad.

A car, for example is a material thing that man has made for mankind... and ONLY mankind can use it. It is a tool used for transportation. We decide where to go. But we decide with our free will to use it for the good or the bad. We can get in and drive to church on Sundays or we can drive to the corner for drugs. We decide with our free will to use this machine by doing something good or bad.

Our bodies take this a step further. We are not ONLY material (like cars)... we also have a mind and a soul, right? My mind, body and soul were made by God (not by my parents). I am to use my mind, body and soul as a tool to sanctify my life. Even though He made ALL of ME, I continue to have the freedom to choose between good and bad. I can use my body to have sex inside the marriage or have sex outside the marriage. I can use my mind to think good or bad. It’s up to me to decide.

Now our fertility takes it a step even deeper. It has to do with other souls that are NOT mine. They are God’s souls. Fertility is His 'tool' in order to get souls put on earth. We are like a bridge for those souls to get here. We still have a free will... we can keep that bridge open for God or we can close it from God.

So when it comes to fertility I still have a will to decide; And, yes I would say: "You drive God".

You see, it's not just about making babies. It is about allowing their souls to get here. It's about receiving them and preparing them so that they can someday have a chance to get to Heaven.

holly said...

Iris...you should be my next best friend. :) Do you have a blog?

Iris said...

To: Stacey/Nickname Unavailable

Some things are hard to express with just letters. This little blogger-window that we use to post doesn’t provide the option to underline or use bold lettering. Therefore, when I use ALL CAPS, I do it in order to emphasize what I am saying. It has nothing to do with volume ;-)

Stacey you said: “as far as planning for life... not all mothers are good Christian women with good families and good values …” You also wrote about the suffering in Africa because of HIV and finished the paragraph by saying: “and before you shout out that that is a result of their sinful behavior, you think about how you are going to change it. you think about the daily suffering that is the lives of children like that. do i think God allowed us to figure out how to prevent pregnancy. yes, i absolutely do.”

I respond by saying: “ I can’t change it. My free will doesn’t go that far” ;) I can pray for them and I do because I can’t change the individuals who choose to live their lives this way.

We can’t fix their problems; we can only evangelize and pray for them. Our job is to love them and share God’s Word with them but ‘they’ are the ones who have the ‘free will’ to change their lives and behavior. I don’t think God wants them to start preventing pregnancy because “pregnancy” is NOT THE PROBLEM, it is the RESULT. The problem is sin! God is not punishing anybody. It’s not even up to God because He has given us all a free will. And if we choose to live our lives in the darkness, then our days will have no sunshine in them!

Figuring out how to prevent pregnancy is NOT going to help them AT ALL. It’s not going to stop the problem. It will only make things worse! People are going to continue sinning even more liberally, knowing that their will be no consequence (yeah right!).

God doesn’t want us to continue sinning, right? The only way out of this and any other problem is by allowing God to bring light into our lives and heal us; meaning that He heals our unhappy souls… and if He decides to heal our bodies along with it then – ‘that is just a bonus.’

It breaks my heart to see others suffering in this manner, it brings me down to tears to know that there are children who don’t have someone to call ‘mommy’ or ‘daddy’ ; but what is even MORE painful to me is that they don’t even know that they can have a “Heavenly Father” who loves them even more than all of us put together… Who understands their worries, Who will take away their fears, Who will protect them, Who will “parent them” and guide them through life on this world all the way to Heaven. “All the way to Heaven.” (I wish that I could just whisper this into their ears.)

THAT’S what I find SAD. Going through ‘life’ without God, must really be tough!!! Even when He is present in our lives, we still go through quite a few storms but we know things will be alright, because we have faith. That is what they ‘need.’

So, even if they all suddenly became sterile… do you think the suffering would stop? I don’t think so!

Iris said...

Holly, no I don't have a blog... but we can be friends! :D

Iris said...

To Stacey:


I said--"creation comes from God and illness comes from man. medicine was invented by man in order to treat or fix what man himself has messed up."

And your response was: “i doubt you would say that to the face of a Christian friend whose child has autism, or cystic fibrosis, or Down's syndrome, or alpha 1 anti-trypsin syndrome, or cerebral palsy, or trisomy 13, or a cleft pallette, or webbed fingers or toes, or was born with nothing but a brain stem (no brain-i have taken care of this child, also).”

My answer: “Yes, I would.”

You also asked: “would you tell those women that they did something wrong and were being punished? not to mention the infertile--maybe God's plan isn't ALWAYS have babies.”

And I answer: “No, of course not. That would be judgmental.”

You see Stacey, mankind has messed things up. Mankind has toyed with God’s creation so badly that WE ALL are suffering from it. Greed has taken nature out of balance. For example: Is it a tree’s fault that it doesn’t bear anymore fruit. Can you blame it for growing sick branches? Did the tree sin? (of course not)

The problem is that man/mankind has dirtied its water, polluted it’s air, stripped it’s soil and replaced it with garbage; all for the sake of profit. So as you can see, I’m not blaming the tree…I’m blaming man’s greed. MAN’s sin!

And I add… if the tree were the one deciding to poison itself and hide away from the Sunshine… knowing that this would bring consequences to it’s fruit and branches; Then of course I’d that the problem was “orchestrated” by the tree, NOT the Sunshine. In this case, I still can’t be judgmental about it. My duty would be to offer it some fresh water and help guide it back into the lovely Sunshine.

Iris said...

I would like to comment a little more but frankly... "THIS tree needs to enjoy what's left of the moonlight before dawn breaks through."

Iris said...

Stacey you said: "but i do resent anyone telling me i caused his "mutillation". here is the quote, "a vasectomy is a mutillation of the body. it changes God's design. it tampers with 'THE' very reason why men even have testicles, that is their function." also a purely emotional statement not based in fact. testicles also produce testosterone, which is not inhibited in any way as the result of a properly-performed vasectomy. we like the fact that he still has testosterone because we both appreciate his deep voice, his scruffy face, and his ability to achieve and maintain an erection. (and, yes, i say that with a bit of tongue-in-cheek,..."

Well Stacey, I did not say that 'you ' caused your husband's mutilation. I did say that a vasectomy is a mutilation and that it tampers with "THE" very reason why men have testicles...meaning procreation. This is not an emotional statement. It is a fact!

As you clearly stated yourself, the part about testosterone, deep voice, scruffy face and erection; all of these aspects were also designed with 'procreation' in mind.

Iris said...

About mutilation of the body. You compared a vasectomy with pierced ears. Okay a vasectomy changes the function of an organ. Pierced ears continue to have the function for which they were designed.

Milburns' said...

Iris and Holly both... I would like to be BOTH of your friends. :-)))) Havent been able to check this in a while but I appreciate not being the only one more on this side of the spectrum. Looking for y'alls blogs now to keep in touch...

JustMom420zaks said...

I think it's nifty. I'm interested in Quiverful. I don't know if i could handle it. We are fretfully poor and my kids have SUCH HUGE PERSONALITIES (code for being little handfuls) But I still secretly want more... and more and more.
Until then I'll live my life vicariously thru you Quiverfuls.
What a wonderful family. What a wonderful life.